Thursday, December 20, 2007

The "Jewish" Dilemma (take 2)

The post Poor Jews or Evil Jews? Or Something In Between?
has caused such a flurry of discussion, among both Jews and Gentiles, that I wanted to update it.

To be frank, I was surprised to find so much discussion, so much concern, about "The Jews" among serious thinkers, on the Web, and in recent opinion books, history books and ongoing current discussions—and on this blog. And it spans the spectrum from intense, angry defense of all things Jewish, and accusations of Anti-Semitism being hurled indiscriminately in all directions—to what I would call true and irrational Anti-Semitism.

(These two extreme positions, by the way, are not treated equally. The Jews hurling epithets are considered justified, their opposites are considered dangerous, vile and evil extremists.)

I have found a confusing whirlpool of information and opinion. But one single fact presents itself with monotonous regularity: The sense among Gentiles and Jews that "the Jews" are a monolithic group, separate and different, whose goals and aims are not necessarily in sympathy with those of the majority America culture.

Of course, Gentiles suspicious of Jewish influence maintain this position, and warn against it. But Jewish thinkers also speak of the Jewish world view, and how it affects their actions, choices and politics. And they themselves speak of "The Jews" as a people engaged in group-think...and also of having extraordinary influence in America, particularly relative to their small numbers.

The influence wielded by Jews in America is acknowledged to be very powerful by groups on either side of the Semitic divide.

I think that we can, for the moment, stipulate that this is true.

As to the direction that influence is moving America, there also seems to be little disagreement: secular; anti-Christian; supporting open-borders and massive non-European immigration; multiculturalism; multi-lingualism; and a very high degree of "Liberal" Political Correctness, which includes affirmative action, racial preferences, speech codes, hate crime laws, gun control, gay rights, radical feminism, on-demand abortion, etc.

Those of us who are Conservative are strongly and vociferously against these positions. We see them as the rot ruining America.

To sum up, as acknowledged by Jews and Gentiles alike: Jews are a self-identified "out" group that evidences, in many ways, a sort of group-think, monolithic mindset; has an inordinately powerful influence in American culture, media and politics, and is pushing an agenda that many of us consider terminally dangerous and destructive for the America we love.

Is it therefore completely unreasonable and baseless anti-Semitism to suggest that America has a "Jewish Problem"?

If the Jews didn't have this agenda, but had influence, it wouldn't be a problem.
If they had this agenda, but little influence, it wouldn't be a problem.
But the combination of the two...makes it a damn problem.

Does this knowledge change how we combat the creeping Liberal crud overtaking our culture? It is what it is no matter who's pushing it down our throats. And without the army of Gentiles working for the same sick goals, they'd never get anywhere.

And let us not forget, there are plenty of individual Jews on "our" side!

I guess the reason I 've been examining this issue is that I've always assumed that people who claimed that "The Jews" were a powerful and negative influence in America were, well...nuts. I never listened to a word they said, and wrote them off as loony, Neanderthal bigots.

But recently, for some reason, I stopped long enough to listen for once, and the arguments, surprisingly, were non-hysterical and fairly cogent. It made me wonder if I'd been wrong all this time.

My reading from Gentile and Jewish sources, suggests that Jews as a group have evolved certain strategies that make them feel safer and more secure within alien "host" cultures, in which they have been fated to live since the loss of their homeland—the final destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple in 70 A.D. by the Romans if I remember correctly.

They keep themselves a sort of nation within a nation, remaining unassimilated, exclusive, alien and thereby readily identifiable...at the same time, engaging in those evolved strategies, which, it turns out, are usually not in the best interests of the Host Culture.

Eventually people will, as people do, figure out what's going on...and resentment and "purging" ensues. The history of Jewish troubles is suggestive of this pattern.

This does not make Jews evil, they are just trying to stay alive and safe; trying to do what I want to do, secure the survival of my race and culture, and the future for our children.

But, if the Jews are to succeed in this ultimate quest, using power, money and influence to the detriment of the majority cultures in which they live, is NOT a winning strategy. At least it hasn't been in the last 2,000 years. (What's that line about insanity: doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results?)

As someone who has never been anti-Semitic, and as a perennial and strong supporter of Israel, I feel rather betrayed to find I am considered an enemy from whom Jews as a group feel they need to protect themselves...enploying strategies that are destructive to my nation, my people, my culture, my traditions, my heritage, and ultimately my future.

If Jews as a group are, indeed, working against my best interests as a White Gentile American, is it unreasonable for me to consider them the "bad guys"?

And if I consider them "the bad guys" for overtly working for the destruction of all I hold dear, is that anti-Semitism or just normal, healthy self interest?

Please understand, I'm not saying that all Jews are bad and should be hated. I adamantly reject that. But I am saying that the philosophical, historical, political position held by many that the Jews as a group are responsible—at least in part—for a lot of whats going so wrong in our country, is not entirely a wild figment of their overheated and bigoted imaginations.

The Gunslinger

17 comments:

  1. Gunslinger,

    I think your last paragraph sums up pretty well where you have landed on this issue and I'm sure there is nothing I could say or do that would ever change your mind.

    But I do need to call you on one statement here:

    The influence wielded by Jews in America is acknowledged to be very powerful by groups on either side of the Semitic divide.

    Now perhaps I'm not reading that correctly but there certainly have been several references in this thread of yours as well as the previous, to this "powerful influence" that the Jews have on America.

    So I'm asking you to be specific. If you are so convinced of this...tell me where that influence lies. Are you saying the MSM is controlled by Jews? Are you saying the the three branches of government are inundated by Jews? Are you saying that George Soros is a Jew? Are you saying that the Fortune 500 is controlled by Jews?

    I would like to see the proof of this control or influence and exactly what "influence" means.

    Rosie O'Donnell made a lot of comments that 9/11 was a conspiracy and when finally asked to explain it, she relied on "fire doesn't melt steel."

    I respect you as much as any blogger (I think you know that from my long history of commenting here) but in this case, I think there is an unfounded theme here that is irresponsible.

    :Holger Danske

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  2. I am not saying, like some, that we are subject to "Zionist Masters". Holger, but there seems to be little argument that what we call Modern Liberalism (as opposed to Classical Liberalism) or Political Correctness or Secularism, or the Left, is, in fact a largely Jewish phenomenon.

    These ideas began in Jewish intellectual circles, were promulgated by Jewish institutions, and organizations (ADL, ACLU, NAACP, et al), and their fellow travellers, and have become, as Conservatives so often lament, the ruling agenda in the media, the entertainment industry, and too often the halls of power.

    Our open borders immigration policy is a perfect example. It is, inarguably, part of the Jewish "agenda" for minimizing White Christian Hegemony, which they clearly consider the greatest threat to their own continued welfare. This has been confirmed by Jewish as well as Gentile writers and thinkers. (See links in next post)

    That this has become the policy of the United States, in spite of the danger it represents to the United States, and in direct contraction to our the stated goals and policies of our historical leaders, and in spite of widespread vehement disapproval by the majority of Americans, argues for a fairly strong influence by the those who urge and support it.

    The assault on all things Christian in our public sphere is also a Jewish strategy, and for the same reasons. The fact that in our overwhelmingly Christian country, our entire public sphere has been stripped of anything resembling a Christian symbol or sentiment, is a testament to Jewish influence, intellectualism and power of persuasion.

    Many of the poisonous ideas that we Conservatives despise as "Liberal", really do have their source in the Secular school of Jewish intellectual thought. And the fact that they have come to dominate so much of the thinking in our culture demonstrates the tremendous influence it wields.

    Again, and as always, I do not suggest this is a reason for hating Jews. But I think that this undue influence must be shed in favor of policies that are favorable to OUR continued existence, to OUR way of life, to OUR heritage and to OUR future.

    And the fact that ours has proven to be the safest culture ever for the Jews, in their long and difficult history, it would behoove them to promote policies that exalt, support and defend it, not those that weaken it in the mistaken idea that the very founders and inheritors of it, are their greatest enemy.

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  3. Most Jews lean liberal (as do I, although that didn't keep me from voting for Arnold in the last election,) and support liberal causes, but there's no organized effort that's lead to this result. There's no national Jewish organization or national Jewish leader who could possibly organize or direct something like this. While there are Jews with a position on open borders, I've never heard of a "Jewish position" on open borders. I don't know of any monolithic Jewish viewpoint on anything other than support for Israel, and even that isn't unqualified support. One of the reasons that I object to typecasting groups as thinking monolithically, be they liberals, conservatives, Jews, Christians, or Muslims is that I hear this accusation leveled against Jews, and I know it's wrong. Claiming that Jews think monolithically is as valid as saying that Christians think monolithically.

    Jews fought for civil rights and against discrimination when they were problems though the middle of the 20th century. I think that was a GOOD thing, and that it strengthened America...not weakened it. It became a country where citizens were treated more fairly. I believe the memory of that struggle has something to do with why most Jews are liberal. That most Jews live on the two coasts, where the milieu tends to be liberal, is probably also a factor.

    I still maintain that for much of it's history, Christianity taught that the enemy of Christians were Jews, and it was practically a Christian duty to bash Jews. What Jews were guilty of wasn't bad behavior. They were guilty of not being Christian.

    Previously I presented some quotes from Martin Luther and Adolph Hitler that expressed this view. I'm sure people have heard the one about Jews using the blood of Christian children to make matzoh. I'd be interested in hearing some comments on those. I'm not personally religious, don't think any particular religion is any better or worse than another, and am not trying to make Christians feel guilty or holding anyone responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago, but I don't know how anyone who is familiar with the history can deny it. I'm not just repeating what I learned as a kid, because I never learned this as a kid. I just like reading about history, and this happens to be the conclusion I've come to.

    Carol, I'm wondering what you think Jews should have been doing for the last 2000 years to get along, and what exactly do you think they're guilty of?

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  4. Oops, I forgot to ask why, if the entire public sphere has been stripped of anything resembling a Christian symbol or sentiment...are there Christmas trees in Union Square, and in front of City Hall, in San Francisco?

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  5. Steve,

    I find the Jews guilty of doing what everybody does, trying to make the world one in which they feel safe and secure and in which their survival is assured.

    Problem is, often the sort of world they envision as doing that is one that is not particularly beneficial to those around them.

    (BTW, I blame "Liberals" for the same thing: Liberals who think that if only the United States ceased to exist, the world would be a peaceful, happy paradise, because they really believe it is the belligerent US that causes all the wars and poverty and terrorism in the world. And while they are working hard to make World Peace, they are destroying my country. Their intended goal of "World Peace" may not be evil, but the "collateral damage" is devastating.)

    And your own example is a good one: The Civil Rights Movement may seem like a good thing to you. When I see the increased racial strife that has resulted, deadly affirmative action, (which is bad for blacks and whites) racist racial preferences, illegal Mexicans demanding Civil Rights, speech codes, "hate crimes", gays demanding to be married, transvestites required to be hired by Christian Bookstores, I think it's fair to wonder if it was such a good idea after all.

    Chrismas Trees? Where's that manger that used to be there? We used to pray in school. We used to read the Bible in school. We used to say "Merry Christmas", not "Happy Holidays", whatever that means.

    And Christmas Trees are an endangered species. They have been removed from innumerable spaces. And in some cases, returned only because of the outrage of the coummunity.

    No-one even bothers to try to get the Creche reinstated. We've all learned that's a lost cause.

    Besides, Christmas Trees are hardly Christian symbols. We've been taught pretty emphatically that they are remnants of our collective pagan past, haven't we?

    I do think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that there are no commonly held Jewish sensibilities; that there is no separate and distinct Jewish identity.

    If that were the case, how and why would organizations like the ADL even exist?

    I don't mean every Jewish person is a robot meekly repeating the party line. I mean there is a tribal sensibility in general, and for good reason. But to deny it flies rather in the face of reality.

    Will you compare my Irish-ness and your Jewish-ness as being of similar type? Where is my tribe? Where are my Irish spokesmen? Where are my Irish "watch" organizations or political advisers or civic leaders on identifiable and specifically Irish interests?

    I'm not even commenting on the Christian blood nonsense. Just because some of the accusations are totally insane, doesn't mean they all are.

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  6. Gunslinger,

    In your comments here, I have seen you, in essence, blame the idea of "PC" on Jews, you blame Secularism on the Jews, you are blaming the Jews for all of the attacks on Christian symbols and Christmas references, and then you wrap it up with this:

    The assault on all things Christian in our public sphere is also a Jewish strategy

    I'm sorry Gunslinger but that is the most outrageous idea I've seen thrown out there in I don't know how long. I suppose it was a Jewish conspiracy to get all of the atheists to actually take the lead on all of those assaults against Christianity in America?

    I have thought back over all the time I have spent here enjoying your blog. I think of the dozens of people I have referred to your blog. I reflect on all of the links to your blog that I have dropped on other blogs. All because I have agreed so closely with all you stand for Gunslinger and how eloquently and on point your have put out the truth.

    But on this Jew issue, I think you have been unfair, if not a bit deceitful. The original post of yours was guised as some sort of a open forum question about the persecution of the Jews. You tried to phrase it as some sort of debate topic and I tried to ignore some of the innuendo there of bias. I also chose to ignore how quickly you came to agrree with an anti-semite and hate-mongerer such as patrick grimm. I even called him on the mat for it in order to give you a chance to recant your approval of him.

    :Sigh: This is just sad for me. If I can give some advice Gunslinger, it's that you don't compromise now, because you never have before and that quality is what has drawn me to you and your blog. You tell it like it is. So don't compromise on this issue and don't hold back - quit phrasing this as a discussion and just flat out say that you blame the Jews and you hold them in contempt for what they have done throughout history, in your eyes. You owe it to yourself and your readers to do that.

    At the same time, I'm disappointed in your stance and belief. But hey, that's what it is all about...a world of views and ideas and passion. I will miss stopping by here Gunslinger - it's been a favorite pit stop for me. I wish you the best today, tomorrow and on that Final Day when all will be revealed.

    :Holger Danske

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  7. "I even called him on the mat for it in order to give you a chance to recant your approval of him."

    How magnanimous. So the Gunslinger must not only fall into line with what you want her to believe, but must also publicly denounce those you disapprove of? Telling, that.

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  8. I'm sorry you feel that way Holger. I think I've pretty much come down on the side of "something in between" evil and pure as the driven snow.

    When did that become "contempt"?

    Are you willing to admit that Jews are wildly overrepresented, based on their relative numbers in America, as leaders, founders, supporters, and apologists for Liberal causes?

    If not, you are simply refusing to face facts.

    If so, does this suggest anything at all to you?

    I wish you well on your journey through this incarnation. Perhaps we will meet again in our next ones.

    Merry Christmas!

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  9. Mr. Smith

    If you don't unquestionably support the Jewish view of Jews, you are an anti-Semite.

    Right out of the ADL handbook.

    Strangely misunderstood by this type is that this constant insistence on the evilness of questioning, serves to make their position weaker, not stronger.

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  10. What does "Right out of the ADL Handbook" mean?

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  11. Hearth Tablet,

    "Why cant Jews feel secure as to where they live or are living"

    Why would Jews feel insecure in America at all? They have no reason to feel the big hand of American White Nazi Power is about to fall on their necks. Because one feels insecure does not necessarily mean one is under actual threat.

    "Feelings" are not necessarily the responsibility of some "other", and should not be blamed on others without true cause. If it is, it's called paranoia, a disease which makes people act inappropriately.


    "Why is it that they come under constant barrage of Christian or Islamic hatred?"

    That is the question I'm attempting to answer in my feeble way. If an individual was constantly rejected and attacked and persecuted by everyone, wouldn't you look to see what that person was doing to engender so much hatred? Or would you simply blame the entire world for his misfortune? I think the same applies to a people as to a person. But as soon as one suggests such a perspective with regard to the Jews, one is accused of Anti-Semitism.


    "All Jews try and do is live out their lives and help the community at large..."

    There is some evidence that the social, financial and political activity of the Jews may be, in fact, detrimental to "the community at large"...which is the crux of our discussion.

    "...and Jews are reprimanded for it on a continual basis by the left and by the right. No matter what its the Jews fault. Always will be."

    This is where our discussion began. Why is this so? Is there an Anti-Jew chromosome in all other races? If there is no REASON for the difficulty Jews encounter, if it is all mindless, thoughtless, instinctual, blind, causless, purposeless hatred, that seems to me the only explanation.

    People are either born hating Jews, in which case there is no hope, or they learn to hate Jews, in which case we have to figure out WHY!

    And THAT is the reason I brought the whole subject up.

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  12. Hearth tablets, if you think about it, 'feeling' secure is just a question of that, feelings. It's a subjective thing. If you're saying that Jews can't feel secure constantly, then surely what you're really doing is insulting the Jews as being horribly paranoid and insecure?

    How terribly anti-Semitic of you!

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  13. Judaism today is under threat from a variety of different groups. Islam, and Neo-nazis and Christians especially those Christian Fundamentalists. So to feel secure in a land that has changed since the 80's in North America in general is un founded. Which is why many of the Holocaust survivors came to North America in the first place. I find it ironic that the U.S. and other north american countries are turning on hard working Jewish people. But its typical of that to happen and has happened for more than 5000 years. And to claim that I am an anti-semite is tres droll as you do not know who you are talking too.

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  14. Oh dear, you didn't think I was serious about you being an anti-semite, did you? How odd that would be. I think the word we're looking for there was sarcasm. Or perhaps irony. One of the two.

    Regardless, I doubt you have much to fear from Christian Fundamentalists, or any Christians at all really. Most of them are too busy beating themselves about the head in an orgy of liberal self-imposed guilt to even pose a threat to the very obvious danger which islam poses to them, much less to the Jews, whom many of them seem to hold in an almost deific reverence.

    A pity that you apparently can't see that, I suspect you could make some very good friends in Christian circles if you were less convinced that they're all out to get you.

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  15. Hmmn, on second thoughts, if you're talking about the seriously wacky pentecostal-type fundies, I think you and I may have a point of agreement. There are some very strange types in that movement. I have found those who seem to see converting others as a kind of point-scoring to get them in good with God, and you might sometimes hear them ask one another how many souls they've 'won for the Lord'. Kind of puts you in mind of a basketball game, really, you can just imagine one of those trying to slam-dunk you into exactly their idea of what the Faith is.

    Odd ducks.

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  16. Bartleby,

    As to "semitic divide"...I have no idea when it's used out of context.

    Did I use the phrase? I read my original post again and didn't see it.

    It's a nice phrase, though...

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  17. as far as I can see through out history Jews have no friends. It will continue to be that way. The evangelicals are supporting Israel for one cause only that is to get Israel into the Evangelic fold. End of story. I know many evangelicals who think that way to. So I dont buy that evangelic so called Israel Support.

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